Episode 1: Mulitple Tab
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You've just been offered a promotion at work. Exciting. Right? Or maybe not. It's a manager role, and you're weary. You've heard the stories. Aren't people getting harder to manage? Not to mention the headlines on manager burnout and layoffs. What about AI? How does that impact the job? Welcome to Piece of Work, a podcast that goes deep into what's behind today's workforce trends. Back in the day, the career ladder was simple. Start at the bottom, move up to manager, and eventually, if you're lucky, make it to the top. Now these days, that ladder is looking way less stable. A lot of employees are saying, no thanks. I'll stay right here. In a study by the recruitment firm Robert Walters, sixty nine percent of Gen Z said middle management is too high stress and low reward. That number doesn't look great long term. Companies need a strong bench of up and comers ready to step in when mission critical roles open up. These roles can take months to fill, and there's a cost to that gap. The Society for Human Resource Management says that for revenue generating roles, companies could lose between seven and ten thousand dollars for each month they go unfilled. So what's going on here? Is the leadership pipeline running dry? In this episode, we unpack why high performers are passing on management and what leaders can do to turn it around. We're in luck. Our first guest today is Rachel Pacheco, organizational behavior expert and author of Bringing Up the Boss, a Practical Guide for New Managers. Rachel, thank you so much for joining the podcast. Speaker 0
So happy to be here. Thanks, Eric. Speaker 2
Let's dive right in. Decline in leadership aspiration. What do you think is really behind it? Is it new, or are we finally just talking about it out loud? Speaker 0
Yeah. It's such an such an interesting, point in time that we're in. So we've heard about kind of the great resignation, but what we're actually experiencing right now as well is what what folks are calling the great flattening. Big companies were letting go of our middle managers. So removing that layer, often, played by, you know, the role played by millennials. We're flattening out organizations, and so we're removing these, these folks that have recently, emerged as leaders and managers in organizations. What that's doing, right, is it's providing a signal to folks that, hey. We don't value you as a manager. We don't value leadership. We don't value kind of these middle managers who are really helping to bring junior people up and to, you know, manage up to to the more senior leaders. And so this great flattening, with these these layoffs is is signaling to folks that, hey. We don't value you as a leader. And so then what does that do? Why would I then aspire to be a leader? Why would I aspire to be a manager if what I'm seeing all around me is that it's not valued? Let me tell you a little story. When my, when when my book Bringing Up the Boss came out, you know, of course, like like any author, you immediately read your reviews, and you immediately, you know, you you immediately go to the two star review and you fixate on that two star review. Right? Of of all of the, you know, hundreds of of wonderful reviews you get, you know, you fix it on that one. And one that really stuck with me, with was this person who said, well, management, you know, being a great manager, it's common sense. Right? And and I couldn't agree more. Great managers support their teams. They give effective feedback. They have hard conversations. They structure work well. Right? These are all common sense things, but they're really, really hard to do. Mhmm. Right? So we know what to do. We know, hey, you know, to be a great manager, we need to give great feedback, but it's actually really hard to give effective, constructive feedback. And so I bring this up to say that companies, promote these accidental managers or promote the, you know, the superstar employee who's an individual contributor because we assume that being a great manager is just common sense. And so we're we're getting rid of managers with the great flattening. We're promoting people. We're putting people in these positions, these accidental manager positions because we don't value, how hard it actually is to be a great manager and the impact that really incredible managers have on on teams and on organizations. Speaker 2
I mean, it's getting even harder. Right? I mean, we all just, you know, went through this extraordinary, challenging, life changing experience with the pandemic and how that changed how we all work, how we show up, our ability to physically show up, but then also the the emotional requirements, the mental requirements, not only being a a employee, but then if if you are, if you are a leader of people, then what your requirement is to, you know, guide your team members through this. Speaker 0
Twofold. Right? First is that, vast majority of Gen z workers expect their managers to, you know, be responsible for their their emotional and mental well-being and, more specifically, to have conversations about their mental health at work. So I'm an old I'm an old millennial, and I would never have expected my manager twenty years ago when I first entered the workplace to have an in-depth conversation with me about my mental health. Right? It's just it's it's it's so it's so foreign. Right? But what we're having is Gen z, they they expect their managers to be equipped to have these conversations. Furthermore, gen z expects their managers to actively bring more purpose and meaning into their work, something else that, you know, managers aren't trained to do. So, you know, on one hand, we have, these new demands of our managers. The second thing, which goes back to this, are fewer people aspiring to be leaders, aspiring to be managers. So many people entering kind of the managerial class now are part of the sandwich generation. Right? We're we're we're we're we're taking care of of young kids and, you know, we're starting to take care of our aging parents. And so we are emotionally we are emotionally tapped out. I think about, you know, in my in my, in my twenties as I was kind of rising through the ranks, how excited I was to manage people. I could not wait to manage individuals and to, you know, be that resource for them. Now I think about management, and, you know, in in in friends and colleagues, we we have these discussions. You have to give so much of yourself as in a manager, and that's emotionally exhausting. Our wells are dry, right, in terms of, oh my gosh. I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm giving so much to my children. I'm also, you know, give caregiving to to other family members, to my aging parents, and I have to give, in order to be a great manager, I also have to give that emotion, that time, that care, and that empathy to my employees. I can't juggle, you know, those three things. Something has to go. Guess what I want? I want a team of zero. And I think we're seeing a lot of that, you know, in the workforce from the sandwich generation who are emotionally tapped out. Speaker 2
So how does that career advancement and career progression look different in this sort of new world? Speaker 0
Yeah. I think there's, there's definitely, the the idea that not everyone needs or or should be a manager in order to make a worthwhile contribution as they advance in their career. Are we fully communicating what the role entails? And can people can people raise their hand, to, you know, to to either opt in or opt out and and not have it be held against them if they if they wanna opt out because it's not for them. And the you know, I think it's it's important for for organizations and for leaders to realize that, hey. Not everyone might wanna be a manager. And, actually, we don't want the people who don't wanna do it because it is a hard role and because it is exhausting. Right? And because it does it does take a lot. And then for some other people, that's all they wanna do. Right? I talk to so many people, so many young people, and you say, hey. What are your what are your, what's your one or two year career goal? I said, I wanna be a manager. Right? I wanna I wanna I wanna lead someone. I wanna manage a team. And that's incredible. And let's give those people the resources, the training, and the support so that then they don't, two years later, opt out because it's too exhausting, and they don't have the structural support to to to really thrive in that role. Speaker 2
Yeah. And and I, you know, you hit on that notion of of the right training. You know, what what are you seeing in terms of of that gap? Speaker 0
The organizations that do it best, they've made a they've made a fundamental shift, right, in terms of how they think about training managers. And that's, you know, managerial skills should be built far before anyone has a direct report. Speaker 2
Mhmm. And Speaker 0
so these companies have have shifted really into, like, a, like, I call it a culture of management. It's not the best term, but it's this idea that the, you know, day one of someone's job, you know, even incredibly green employee. Right? Green, fresh out of college, fresh out of high school, you know, someone working. They can be building those managerial skills such that when they then have a direct report or they opt in to have a direct report, they're not starting to learn those skills when they have someone. That's the challenge. Right? Is that even man even in companies that say, hey. We have a lot of management training. They're training managers once those managers already have teams, And it's too late. Right? And so what great companies are doing is they're thinking, okay. Well, what are the what are the skills that a great manager has? They give, effective constructive feedback, right, in order for growth and development. They're able to manage conflict really well and work through conflict, repair conflict on teams, and encourage healthy conflict. They're able to have difficult conversations with individuals. You know, they're able to, structure work in a way that's manageable and clear. So all of these things, we can learn all of these. Again, the the very first day of our very first job, we can start learning these skills. And so then when we become a manager, we already have these foundational skills in place, and we start to apply them, to then, you know, a single direct report. We start to apply them to a team, and we build our, you know, we we build our capabilities that way as opposed to kind of when you get your direct report, then you start learning these skills. And that's you know, it it's too late. People are already gonna be miserable, you know, if if if you don't have those skills. Speaker 2
Absolutely. And and I think those core leadership principles apply, you know, inside that culture and inside, you know, the the market and the business where they operate. I mean, there's just so many dynamics in there that, you know, if a if an organization is not leaning in, there's a lot that can go sideways or or just not bring out the best of the the employees. Right? And that's in this world of how do we get more productivity, and how do we go faster, and how do we, you know, sort of do all these things at an entirely different level. You know, that that also becomes a a revenue hit, a cost hit. I mean, there's so much inside that that inside that that can affect, an organization very, very negatively and and as well as the, you know, the employee experience. Speaker 0
I was gonna add one more thing too. Right? And it's, essentially, what organizations wanna do is they wanna get to this virtuous cycle of management. Right? Because if you think about, the folks that end up becoming really exceptional managers, they've had a an exceptional manager in the past. Right? And so they've seen the model. They see they they they see what works well, and and they, you know, they don't mimic what they do, because we all have kind of our authentic authentic style of leading. But they're much more likely to be a great manager as well if they've had someone, if they've had this role model. We're copying many of the mistakes that our managers have made. And so companies that invest in their managers, they're just by default investing in the next class of managers that are gonna come up in five, eight, ten years, because role models are so important in terms of how we lead. Speaker 2
Absolutely. And and, you know, of course, I have to at least ask, you know, one one question, around the the theme of the day, and maybe it's maybe it's of the this this century. But where does AI play, you know, in this? Speaker 0
It's going to make managers' jobs even more difficult, for people to find fulfilling and meaningful work. Right? What we know is that as work gets easier, as we remove some of the product productive friction of work Mhmm. Right? This this stuff that, like, we struggle with in in it's it's hard. We're challenged by it, but then we have this, like, massive satisfaction when we AI removes a lot of that. It makes work a lot of work easier. And what we know is that challenging hard work is some of the most meaningful work we have in our life. Our fundamental human need, right, is to find meaning and purpose in what we do. And AI puts that at risk because it makes things easier. It takes away a lot of that productive friction, that's hard. And so as managers, we have to think about, okay. How can I continue to challenge my employees? How can I continue to push my employees to learn when so much of their task or so many of their tasks are kind of mediated or supported by AI, which just makes things easier? And so it's it's it's hard. The other thing kind of back to Gen z, you know, we know about Gen z is, there's, they are a generation with kind of the highest rates of perfectionism, Speaker 2
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and which goes hand in hand with anxiety. Right? So, like, there's there's there's perfectionism and and anxiety coming coming to play. And so my concern as a as a as a as a leader you know, my concern as a professor in my classroom is that I need to challenge my employees. I need to challenge my students. But because of this massive fear of failure, this increase in perfectionism, plus the reliance on AI, that's like a that's a that's a dual problem. Because, hey. If I can't think of the idea, I can ask AI for that idea. So I'm never gonna come to class or I'm never gonna come to a man a a meeting with my boss and say, I couldn't figure this out or I couldn't come up with an idea or I couldn't come up with a new solution. Because even if they're bad, AI is gonna produce something. Right? And so I'm right? So I'm never gonna have that experience of, like, coming to a meeting without anything or saying I couldn't figure it out. Because, again, even if it's wrong, I will have something. So that risk of failing continues to decrease alongside this kind of perfectionism. Speaker 2
That's a super fascinating take. You know? To be honest, I haven't thought about it in exactly that way. Right? Because there's so much of the hard, tedious, busy, friction y stuff that, you know, we're so excited for for AI to take. But, you know, to your point, then when you sort of clear that that deck and you're really staring into and and, you know, the load is lighter, again, it puts that that notion of meaning and and, you know, the work you really are meant to do and you care about doing and and but that you still need a certain amount of friction and you still need, you know, problem and breaking through it. And so what what do you tell HR teams right now in in terms of how they can support, the next generation of leaders? Speaker 0
You know, always the first thing I I focus on is this idea of, can you start to build leadership skills? Can you start to build management skills from the very first day of someone's very first job? Right? And and and and think about embedding, embedding those skills. You know, it doesn't have to be formal training. It can be, informal, you know, informal modes of learning. But how can you start getting people to practice these really critical skills? Again, resolving conflict, having hard feedback, structuring work effectively, having difficult conversations. Right? Can you start building those the very first day of someone's very first job? And, you know, back to this idea of of perfectionism, we know we have a generation of folks who are petrified of failing and don't wanna take risks because of kind of the anxiety in in in focus on perfectionism. You know, Jonathan Haidt in his book, The Anxious Generation, talks about why. Like, why, you know, why why do you why did why do these younger folks have some of so much of this anxiety and perfectionism? And, you know, in some ways, we we we both have to make them allow them to fail in the workplace, and we have to make sure we're giving them the the, you know, the the tools and the resources early on so that they feel like they're they're competent and they're going to be capable in those roles. So I think that's the first thing. Right? Like, how can you start building these skills really early on? And I think the second thing, which goes back to this this conversation about AI that we're having, is I think HR, you know, the the the people ops and in HR HR groups can play a role in helping leaders and helping organizations think about how can we effectively challenge our employees. Speaker 2
Rachel showed us why so many new managers struggle and what it takes to help them succeed. But what does that look like on the ground, Especially in places like retail, manufacturing, health care, where frontline managers face tough challenges every day and it's never easy to find your next leader. Well, that's where our next guest comes in. Dan Staley is an HR expert with PwC who's worked closely with frontline teams for over a decade. He's here to help us understand why fewer of today's workers want management roles and what companies can do about it. Okay. Dan, welcome. Thank you for joining the podcast. Exciting to spend some time with you. We're talking today about the shrinking pool of workers who want to become managers. How do you see that playing out across frontline industries like retail, manufacturing, or hospitality? Speaker 1
Well, I think it's certainly an issue, and I think organizations are, in some cases, starting to address that. But I I think, you know, especially in the retail space where I work a lot, within PwC, we're finding that a lot of the, you know, the job has gotten more complex, and there hasn't been a lot more pay or flexibility. So you used to you've got these workers or they're having to, you know, man the registers and restock inventory and, you know, handle sort of customer escalations. And I think, there's more and more of that these days. And at the same time, they're they're playing HR roles. You know, they're interviewing, they're hiring, training, scheduling, having to focus on compliance. So there's a lot asked of them, and I and I do think that, you know, we're seeing fewer and fewer people seeing that that's worth, the dollars that they're paid. So I I do think it's a it is a issue for sure. You know, it's the work can be kind of grueling. Right? Speaker 2
I would imagine, many of these frontline managers probably feel fairly kinda, ill equipped to to be able to to handle that. Is that what what's your what's your view? Speaker 1
Part of the issues is, you know, they don't have a lot of support, or in many cases, they don't have a lot of support, you know, from kind of the mothership or from, the corporate office. I mean, I think there's a lot of organizations that put a lot of stock in making sure that the storefront or the front line are taken care of. But, I think it's, it goes without saying that direct conversation, like I think when we talk about, you know, you ask to the retail worker where they get their information or how often they rely on corporate websites or corporate communications, it's not a lot. Most of what they glean are from their store managers. And so that role is pretty critical, and plays a huge part of keeping the workforce engaged. But then the question to you alluded to is, is, you know, who's sort of taking care of those managers? Like, what support are they getting, given these kind of enhanced roles that they're playing and all these things kind of being thrown at them? These are, you know, million dollar enterprises, and and they want them to act as owners. And so in this case, they're, you know, stock options and stock grants. And I think with all of the perks and benefits, I think I read it to pay, you know, up to four hundred k. I mean, certainly well over six figures. And, and and that I think is what it's going to take. I think to get people to kinda want to do these these jobs is is treat them, you know, more as owners where, you know, they're they're incentive. And I think one of the things that we encourage organizations to do is to really look at the different, you know, personas that you have and and basically because not everybody is the same and people are in the business for different reasons. Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, because a lot of a lot of those challenges that that you hit on to be addressed, I I would imagine also, like, when we think about just, you know, sort of post pandemic, would have accelerated quite a bit. Right? Because as you as you well noted, you know, earlier in the conversation, particularly when you think about retail or manufacturing, hospitality, you know, a number of these, there's not that work from home option. Are you seeing, you know, in in terms of just just trends, that there are less, you know, frontline workers kinda raising their hands to be people leaders? Speaker 1
Well, I think certainly the you know, they've got to see that the upper that the opportunities and the rewards are there. So, I think you'll you'll see in some cases where, you know, managers don't make that much more. You know, I I I had a friend whose son worked at one of the grocery chains and and they did have some upward mobility where if you stayed there x number of years, you could start to make some some real money. But in the short term, becoming a supervisor, I didn't know that it came with any extra pay. I mean, maybe it was a dollar or two more an hour. It wasn't much, for a lot of extra extra responsibility of, you know, getting in early and opening up or closing out or, you know, dealing with the hassles of sort of managing the team. And so I the first thing is, you know, organizations have to make that that next level, that management level, you know, worth the extra time. There was a PwC, you know, recent hopes and fears survey where, you know, employees, I think, sixty percent felt like they really weren't being paid enough, you know, in those roles for what they had to do. I think the flexibility is the other side of it. I mean, that's, again, a retail challenge where there's not a lot of options. I think to your other point you alluded on is, certainly, some of it is the skills. So having access to the skills, getting that training, and going again for that cohort that wants to advance, making those opportunities, you know, available to them. Speaker 2
You know, if there's one or two things when you think about HR or operational leaders, that maybe they should reconsider in terms of how they support frontline leaders, what do you think? Speaker 1
The probably most important thing I think you could do is really just, you know, spend the time listening to them and understanding those issues. And then, you know, trying to craft solutions that are are more unique to them. When we kinda look at what the employees are wanting, it's, you know, it's it's compensation is top. It's it's you know, I want a skills and maybe career advancement and just new opportunities. It's additional flexibility, maybe additional PTO. I mean, so and and that may not be the same for everybody. And that's why I think looking at, you know, breaking it in you know, doing the surveys, breaking it into a couple different cohorts, understanding what those cohorts want, understanding the percent of people you have that are in those cohorts and really crafting a strategy that appeals to each one of them versus maybe, oh, this is what, you know, this is what I think everybody wants and understanding that everybody's in a different place. You've got some people who are, you know, certainly on the front line who are gonna be older and they're gonna be, you know, right, they're gonna be in their forties and fifties or thinking about different things than maybe the the the nineteen year old is. So and I think that's important to really understand where each where each person is and each cohort is. Speaker 2
I loved speaking with Rachel and Dan on how we can find and support the next generation of managers. Here's what they taught me about this important piece of work. First, rethink the path. If we want more and better managers, make leadership a role with structure, support, and room to grow. Give managers trusted data and training in the flow of work so the job feels doable, not endless. Second, build real non manager careers, not as a consolation prize, but as a path to influence, impact, and recognition. On the front line especially, don't ask people to trade more stress for the same pay. Reward the work, not just the headcount. Third, make succession a system, not a scramble. Start early. Service potential, not just past performance. Teach leadership skills before someone gets their first direct report. So stepping up feels like a next step, not a cliff. Bottom line, don't push everyone into management. Redesign the path. Support the people. Make leadership a choice worth making. Thank you for listening to Piece of Work. I'm Eric Glass. If you've enjoyed the show, let us know what you think on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaker 3
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